THZ / LWZ Tecalor Stiebel Eltron Heizung

[immi]

Thanks for pushing this with SE, balu. I am less optimistic, however. Their sales department will veto this because of ISG Web with its outragous price. Second their lawyers will not like it either because the software control in the wrong hands could mean trouble as willybaus described. Also, by opening the code to the public, you can also run into prorietary issues, like giving away secrets to the competition or have somebody in China copy your product 1:1. And that is a hard thing to argue. The only chance I see that they will give it away when the current THZ that can be controlled by the module is outdated.

hi tom
I have never read a summary so narrow-minded and fuddy-duddy.
But you are right, because lots of enginnering endeavor are just bocked by people playing with the fear and making terror. What could happen if ...? have you made an FMEA? Have you asked your legal department?
I go back in the water.
immi

[willybauss]

hi tom
I have never read a summary so narrow-minded and fuddy-duddy.
But you are right, because lots of enginnering endeavor are just bocked by people playing with the fear and making terror. What could happen if ...? have you made an FMEA? Have you asked your legal department?
I go back in the water.
immi

I don't name it  narrow-minded nor  fuddy-duddy, since I believe it's not tom's opinion but just the (rightly assumed) thinking of the addresees. They're of course related to their responisibilities and much less (if at all) to our hobby project. That's simply a fact, no matter if we like it or not. But I'd like to see that I'm wrong, so let's hope and wait for the answer.

[micomat]

i remember car manufacutrers have made similar statements to people who connect open source or third party OBD systems to their cars. some courts judged that this is no problem as long as the parameters change are not out of the specs given by the manufacturer. and i guess that we do nothing out of specs. we are just changing values remote instead of at the panel. same with a computer... just changing the hardware (memory, CPU, ...) does not affect the guarantee of the rest of the system at all as long as you are following the manuals.
so i guess thats all more or less big blahblah...

[houseowner123]

Fuddy-duddy is the term of the day, I guess.
I currently work at the intersection between academia and big industry. I learnt to there are always two sides of the coin and in the end you gotta sell it to your partner to secure the deal. Since I focused on the negative side before here, comes the plus side: Heat pumps, especially air heat pumps have become a tough sell, especial since the EEG Umlage is already by 6 cents now and will rise in the future. Federal regulators have also realized they are not efficient (greeting to immi!) as they can be and withdrew federal loan support for the 303/304 model. Look here: http://www.bafa.de/bafa/de/energie/erneuerbare_energien/publikationen/energie_ee_waermepumpe_liste_ab_2013.pdf
SE therefore will present a new model this fall: http://www.stiebel-eltron.de/erneuerbare-energien/produkte/lueftung/integralgeraete-mit-zentraler-zuluft/lwz-504/

However, since amazon.com, every seller knows how important ratings and customer satisfaction are. The programming brains of this group (definitely not me) have realized the potential that is still in almost outdated models, to improve handling, customizing to specific needs, monitoring and most important to ingrate the the/lwz into general house automatization (which is without a doubt the future). We as group are faster as an SE engineers group to come up with ideas (email alerts, temperature information, heating programs, etc) that make the lwz/thz more attractable to customers.
Permanent monitoring and alerting can help reduce customers cost. Most LWZ are badly setup and neglected and waste energy which in turn give it a bad reputation. FHEM THZ module can change that and if the engineers want they can integrate some of our customization into their software. They can only benefit from this group because we are dedicated customers which provide open feedback they can use for their own development.

Not to forget there is also a Viesmann FHEM and soon any heating system will be part of this. So, by endorsing this, SE could be front runners. We are their Fan base!

OK, the only downside: We are not a legal group. So accountability is a problem. What if somebody creates a virus and writes it in here. Maybe Rudof König could help us out in this sense, that somehow the code is protected from any misuse or so. If somebody knows of a lawyer, that could provide legal advice...that would be great.

Again just my two cents. Balu, if I can help you, drop me a PM.

Tom

[willybauss]

 

... i guess that we do nothing out of specs. we are just changing values remote instead of at the panel...

I spent the last two hours to proof that this assumption is wrong: we're changing values, yes. But with a different result than changing them via the panel. Therefore the argument would be (rightly) that we don't know/understand what we're doing.

@immi:
I meanwhile can confirm that my assumption regarding to the 2nd issue (see my posting of today 14:06:51) is right. Changing timing settings of fan programs is possible, the result of these changes is visible on the THZ display, BUT the changed settings are never activated. Fan speed doesn't change at all, no matter if I try to define a day or night mode using any one of the time definitions. The only way I found to activate the changed settings is, to open the setting in the THZ display and change it again. Just opening and confirming the existing settings doesn't work; it definitely needs to be changed again using the THZ display.

That's exactly the same behavior I already reported months ago for the pXXUnschedVentY settings and for party-time. I strongly believe it's the same for all DHW, HC1, HC2 and holiday timing settings.

Summarizing these results I have to say that approx. 130 set parameters are not in working condition.


Regarding to the 1st issue  (see my posting of today 14:06:51) I can confirm that changing time values works correctly, when argMax is being changed from "23:59" to "24:00". But since 2nd issue is not (yet) fixed that doesn't help in any way currently.

[willybauss]

@ Tom
I'd like to read the linked documents, but unfortunately the links seem to be broken. Could you please repair them or send them to me via PN?
Thanks
Willy

[belu]

Hi,

tomorrow will write something for Stiebel Eltron considering all the arguments. Dangers I'll talk small and emphasize the benefits.

Oh I was thinking something about the No Bypass ...
I currently have a simple KG 125 tube in it, built as a summer cassette air sealing in the exhaust duct.
Operate it now with passive cooling mode 4, works great so far.

I find the approach with a ground heat exchanger is not bad, I have only to consider the fresh air and the drain.
In summer the works so wonderful with a siphon and 2% gradient. Since I'm only afraid of mold and bacteria.
In winter, it can dry out the siphon and then I draw the air out of the sewers.

Those are actually both no good stuff.
For the summer, I've already looked at me it would really make sense, a bypass to the fresh air to attach suction.

Covered because of such a thing. http://intelmann.net/index.php/cat/c41_Bypassklappen-Bypassklappen.html

The idea is. in the summer to pull in operation with the summer cassette air from the basement to the air quality and to improve the temperature.
I have a passive house. So air change is <= 0.6 N5 which means it is partly really stuffy after 12 hours with no ventilation.
Had it today simply tested times in which I have the fresh air pipe settled and closed.
Works really well, the air from the basement has 18 degrees and then flows into the rooms with 25 ..
Somehow I got to the heat exchanger, the heat can not be dissipated get the last days. Therefore, today the idea of ​​the summer cassette.

What do you think?

[lwzler]

@willy

At least I can support you with the link to the LWZ504 (which is a really nice HP with inverter)
http://www.stiebel-eltron.de/erneuerbare-energien/produkte/lueftung/integralgeraete-mit-zentraler-zuluft/lwz-504/

@Topic

Call me pessimistic. But I wouldn't be surprised if newer upcoming firmware releases for THZ/LWZ would need a hardware dongle, that secures the communication with the LWZ/THZ and therefor ist restricted to authorizes service personal or users that pay for ISG Web etc.
Hopefully this is only pessimistic, as also the development of this would cost extra money and SE maybe comes to the point, that the FHEM community is rather small. But on the other side those big companies won't get taken the butter from their breads 

[micomat]

OK, the only downside: We are not a legal group. So accountability is a problem. What if somebody creates a virus and writes it in here. Maybe Rudof König could help us out in this sense, that somehow the code is protected from any misuse or so. If somebody knows of a lawyer, that could provide legal advice...that would be great.

Again just my two cents. Balu, if I can help you, drop me a PM.

Tom

Not a Problem i think. could Happen to any Open Source Software. GPL/GNU or whatever fhem is licensed to will Take care of this legal issue.

markus

[micomat]

@Topic

Call me pessimistic. But I wouldn't be surprised if newer upcoming firmware releases for THZ/LWZ would need a hardware dongle, that secures the communication with the LWZ/THZ and therefor ist restricted to authorizes service personal or users that pay for ISG Web etc.
Hopefully this is only pessimistic, as also the development of this would cost extra money and SE maybe comes to the point, that the FHEM community is rather small. But on the other side those big companies won't get taken the butter from their breads 

no way. Nobody would Pay for. also in Case of a Problem with such a dongle the Wohle Heating can fail. Never Seen such lockouts then in license environments.

stiebel woulndt be so stupid

[immi]

Hi Markus
>>i remember car manufacutrers have made similar statements to people ......
you were reading my mind.

What if somebody creates a virus and writes it in here. Maybe Rudof König could help us out in this sense, that somehow the code is protected from any misuse or so. If somebody knows of a lawyer, that could provide legal advice

Hi Tom
It would be great, if you support Belu with the comunication with Stiebel Eltron.

You are right. I could put a trojan  in the code, like each of the 30 people with write access to  sourceforge repository. But the nice thing behind an open source project, is that each of you will see what each developer did to each fhem modules.  I think this model is safer than each compiled propietary software you are using every day.

Rudolf could lead FHEM in a over-safe direction. I really hope we will not do it.

p.s. We need lawyers, if they are ready to learn perl. If Stiebel Eltron shares some documentation (at very high engineering level), they are not responsible of the misuse of the information, because it can only be read by an expert. Product liability (produkthaftung) (at least in europe) takes  care of  protecting the weak side.


Hi Willy
I am definitelly not in the mood of looking at the code.
Thanks for testing carefully before reporting a bug.
Could you make one more check?

Instead of changing only with FHEM programFan_Mo-So_0, could you change also programFan_Mo_0 programFan_Tu_0 ......
I am not checking in 00_THZ, if  there is a conflict between the whole week and each day.
I think the display takes care of fixing such a conflict.

immi

[willybauss]

Could you make one more check?

Instead of changing only with FHEM programFan_Mo-So_0, could you change also programFan_Mo_0 programFan_Tu_0 ......
I am not checking in 00_THZ, if  there is a conflict between the whole week and each day.
I think the display takes care of fixing such a conflict.

Hi immi,

of course I could do it, but it would be a waste of time. Before I started testing I ensured all other fan related values to be in "n.a.--n.a." state. I did it twice - first with fhem and then additionally by crawling through all the menu items in the THZ display. So there's definitely no conflict. Additionally, as I already said, the result fits the previous observations of party-time and unschedVent. In these values there's no possibility of a conflict at all.

Just enjoy your vacation and come back recovered. We can wait some time. Since we know about the issue it's an easy workaround to not change these values via fhem for a while.

Willy

[houseowner123]

Could you try to make same setting again, but using the THZ display instead of fhem? I assume that it will work then, as described above "... set but not activated, when programming is being done with fhem instead of using the THZ display".

I did it and it is fixed now. I don't think that FHEM is to blame (maybe). The problem was that I had entries for the individual work days and Mo-So. It is not problem if you never change the air settings for day/night like during winter. But during the summer...the control is confused. So I eliminated individual day entries and now it is working fine.

To all: How did you make through the heat wave? Which settings worked best (times and temperatures). Maybe we can compare setting and can come up with a good "cooling config paragraph".
I only did normal Sommerkassette cooling level 2 from 9:30 pm to 8 am. In house temps increased 1,5°C per day. Upper floor humidity (bed rooms) is biggest problem. How do get the cold basement air up there? And since the basement air (18°) has 70% humidity, aren't you making problems worse by pushing it upwards?

Tom

PS: links in my previous post are fixed now.

[immi]

I did it and it is fixed now.

happy

[/quote]
... How do get the cold basement air up there? And since the basement air (18°) has 70% humidity, aren't you making problems worse by pushing it upwards?
[/quote]
I have not computed it but just by feeling. As soon as you 18°C 70% will go upstairs (if you find a solution for it), they will be heated to 24°C or more with 55% hum, which ould be acceptable
immi

[micomat]

i close all my shutters in the morning and set passive cooling to 1.
opend a window in ground floor and first floor and opened also the door to the basement.
doesn't help too much but a little is better than nothing.

ground floor about 25°C/50%, 1st floor 27°C/55%

i would love to soak up the basement air also but i have no idea how that could work without the special "fortluftklappen passivkühlung" described in the manual.