THZ / LWZ Tecalor Stiebel Eltron Heizung

[willybauss]

i close all my shutters in the morning and set passive cooling to 1.

That's ok.

opend a window in ground floor and first floor and opened also the door to the basement.

doesn't help too much but a little is better than nothing.

That's not ok, if it's also being done in the morning. Passive cooling just works during night time, when outside temperature is less than inside temp. As soon as outside temp rises in the morning the passive cooling mode is being switched off automatically, going back to normal fan operation. Therefore you need to activate passive cooling in the evening and open the windows over night.

Since I decided to not install a summer cassette I set the lowest fan levels (1 or even 0) during daytime; the more fresh air, the more heat comes into the house, since the efficiency factor of the heat exchanger is < 100%. During night time I proceeded as described above: fan level 3 + passive cooling type 1, some windows opened (just in "air input" rooms, not in exhaust rooms!

Passive cooling doesn't make sense if you have a summer cassette. Passive cooling is just a workaround in order to bypass the heat exchanger, what's not necessary in case of a summer cassette.

Does it really make sense to bring the cool air from basement up into the upper floors? This will result in warm air to flow from upper floors into basement, to avoid a vacuum there. Sooner or later the basement will be heated up as well by this air flow ... And: as long as it's warm outside you should NOT open the windows in basement to avoid vacuum. Otherwise the warm air flows through the windows into basement, cools down and the humidity rises due to cooling down. This is a frequent error, causing mould problems sooner or later.

When I planned my house I also thought about distributing heat through the ventilation system. But it turned out quickly that the energy content of air is much too less to be really efficient. That's the reason why you can cool down your houses a whole night long using highest ventilation speed without big effect. The ideal house would have perfectly isolated wooden outside walls ("Holzständerbauweise"), but heavy stone made walls inside, which have a very high storage capacity for heat (in winter) or cold (in summer).

[houseowner123]

Nice and correct summary, willy!

One more thing comes to mind to accelerate the air exchange: Increase p39 and p42 Airflow settings. Mine are currently set at 220 m^3/hr with a heated house volume 452 m^3. One complete air volume change would take 2 hrs. How is the setting in your houses and are their recommendations or guidelines how high one can go with the exchange rate?

I also thought to use the IF command to set p08FanStageNight= 3, when the filtered outside temp is lower than the filtered inside temp and return to p08FanStageNight=0 when the ratio is reversed or has a 1 degree difference.  So, you don't accidentally warm up the house.

I mentioned before that the heat recovered counting continues despite floor heating off and a Sommerkassette in place. I believe the reason for that is, that the inlet air temp is measured by the the and together with the flow rate, the heat amount is simply calculated. If air flow is set to zero - recovered heat remains zero.

[micomat]

willy, of course only in the night time.

[willybauss]

One more thing comes to mind to accelerate the air exchange: Increase p39 and p42 Airflow settings. Mine are currently set at 220 m^3/hr with a heated house volume 452 m^3. One complete air volume change would take 2 hrs. How is the setting in your houses and are their recommendations or guidelines how high one can go with the exchange rate?

I forgot to mention that I did exactly this already in last summer.
p39: 240m³
p42: 284m³
The different settings are intended: airflow measurements showed that these settings are necessary to ensure almost identical in- and putput flows. I say "almost identical" since I wanted to force a very slight under-inflation to surely avoid over-inflation, which can cause damages to the building in winter time.

I also thought to use the IF command to set p08FanStageNight= 3, when the filtered outside temp is lower than the filtered inside temp and return to p08FanStageNight=0 when the ratio is reversed or has a 1 degree difference.  So, you don't accidentally warm up the house.

I don't think that's necessary if you use passive cooling mode: in this mode THZ itself checks for useful temperature ranges and switches back to "normal" operation if passive cooling mode isn't sensible. If you have a summer cassette installed it might be useful of course.

[houseowner123]

Immi: from config file:

Code Auswählen Erweitern

2014.06.12 19:34:23 3: Mythz THZ_ReadAnswer got no answer from DevIo_SimpleRead. Maybe timeout to slow?
and

Code Auswählen Erweitern

Use of uninitialized value in concatenation (.) or string at ./FHEM/00_THZ.pm line 1006.

in other news: air ventilation timing settings are out of control, even when I set them on the the/lwz display. Just free running on current setting 24/7. Restart did not help. Any ideas?

Thanks,
Tom

[micomat]

passive qooling thought-chain...

when using passive cooling set to 1, the incoming air fan is disabled, the exhaust air fan is increased.
fresh and cool air is soaken up from e.g. open windows or basement and will flow via the exhausts through the flat.

when using setting 2 the manual tells me not to open the windows. i have a very airthight house. so i think i wont have an advantage with overpressure only. so maybe i will try it to open a windows also to blow out the warm air as the inlet air wont be heated through the heat exchanger when the exhaust fan is disabled.


hm....

[willybauss]

Immi: from config file:

Code Auswählen Erweitern

2014.06.12 19:34:23 3: Mythz THZ_ReadAnswer got no answer from DevIo_SimpleRead. Maybe timeout to slow?
and

Code Auswählen Erweitern

Use of uninitialized value in concatenation (.) or string at ./FHEM/00_THZ.pm line 1006.

in other news: air ventilation timing settings are out of control, even when I set them on the the/lwz display. Just free running on current setting 24/7. Restart did not help. Any ideas?

Thanks,
Tom

What did you restart - fhem or THZ? In case of trouble I suggest you to unplug the cable to fhem-server and press the THZ's reset button for at lease 20 ... 30 seconds. Then check carefully all fan program settings for single days, for Mo-Fr, Sa-So and Mo-So. Correct any possible inconsistenciesand possibly try another reset afterwards.

[willybauss]

when using setting 2 the manual tells me not to open the windows.

My version of the manual doesn't forbit to open the windows, it just says you do not need to open windows. Of couse with open windows the efficiency is much better.

[micomat]

Telling not to do so is not a forbiddance
will try it

[immi]

Immi: from config file:

Code Auswählen Erweitern

2014.06.12 19:34:23 3: Mythz THZ_ReadAnswer got no answer from DevIo_SimpleRead. Maybe timeout to slow?
and

Code Auswählen Erweitern

Use of uninitialized value in concatenation (.) or string at ./FHEM/00_THZ.pm line 1006.
in other news: air ventilation timing settings are out of control, even when I set them on the the/lwz display. Just free running on current setting 24/7. Restart did not help. Any ideas?

Hi Tom
"Maybe timeout to slow?" is coming each time the comunication is faulty. Nothing bad, you are just dropping a request, which should be repeated. The second warning is related to the first.
If you have too much of these logs, we have to dig deaper.

For the timing setting, I need to be home for verifying also what Willy wrote. Please share your progress.

I still have not understood how the firmware interpretes conflicts: and there are lots of combination possible.
My Hypothesis (never checked) looks like this:
1) daygroups (x_Mo-Fr_x , x_Mo-So_x and x_Sa-So_x) are only relevant for the display
2) Single days (x_Mo_x, x_Tu_x, x_We_x ...) are used by the firmware to control the heatpump.
3) when you change in the display daygroups, also sigle days are accordingly changed.

I never implemented any rule between sigle days and daygropus in 00_THZ, because I am not sure of the above, which could be too easy. I expect something more creative:)

As you see, it would be great to have a complete documentation of the firmware. We could concentrate on new features or stability, instead of reverse eng. the heatpump.

immi

[willybauss]

I made a small test for the program times. I used HC2 for it, which is unused in my case, so I don't risk breaking my working setup. I believe the system works same for e.g. fan or DHW programming.

   
• removed all program entries
• entered Monday_2 08:00--10:00
• entered Mo-So_2 07:00--09:00  ==> Mo_2  changes to  07:00--09:00
• changed Mo_2 back to  08:00--10:00 ==> Mo-So_2 stays at   07:00--09:00, Mo_2 stays at  08:00--10:00
• changed Mo-So_2 to 07:30--09:00  ==> Mo_2  changes to  07:30--09:00

Summarizing it looks like always the last entry wins, but just in case of same value id (Mo_1, Mo_2, Mo_3).


Further tests with different ids show that "last entry wins" is limited to values of same id. Discrepencies with different ids are not solved, nor overwritten, e.g.

   
• set Mo_1 to 08:00--10:00
• set Tue_2 to 08:15--10:00
• set Wed_3 to 08:30--10:00
• set Mo-Fr_1 to 07:00--09:00
• ==> Mo_1 changes to  07:00--09:00
• Tue_2 stays as it is
• Wed_3  stays as it is

Tue and Wed have finally two entries with overlapping times

   
• Tue_1 is  07:00--09:00
• Tue_2 is  08:15--10:00
• Wed_1 is  07:00--09:00
• Wed_3 is  08:30--10:00

Therefore it's very easy to ensure having all programs removed: set Mo-So_1,  Mo-So_2 and  Mo-So_3 to any value and afterwards reset  them to --:-- - --:--. This removes all other settings for single days etc. as well.

I did all of these tests using the THZ display. I intentionally avoided using fhem to set values, since we know (see my posting of a few days before) that this would set, but never activate values, which would result in nothing else but confusion.

[houseowner123]

@willy: I was thinking of you, wehn I read this. May be worth checking out this winter as it comes directly from Stiebel-Eltron:

Some settings for advanced fine tuning of heat pumps

Beyond these more commonly adjusted controls are a number of additional refinements to consider:

1.Kelvin Minutes
This setting governs how hard a heat pump works. It looks at the temperature of the water in your heating system and compares the set temperature (decided by the heat curve and outside temperature) with the actual water temperature. If the temperature is close to the set temperature it waits a relatively long time before recalculating and turning the pump up to speed heat up or down if the set temperature has been reached (to see how little effort is required to maintain the set temperature). If the differential is large it waits a short time before recalculating and adjusting the effort up or down. So for example if the temperature of the water is rising 2 degrees every minute, the controller might add 2 minutes to the time before recalculating the effort required. As the water comes closer to the set point the intervals between recalculations get longer and longer. There is a manual setting from 0-500 that allows you to influence the intervals between recalculations – so if we take our earlier example we might slow the response so that the system adds 4 minutes instead of 2 to its thinking time when the temperature is rising at 2 degree every minute Slowing the response like this will have a beneficial effect on efficiency as the heat pump will work less hard – but of course this can be at the expense of response time. This is where buildings with a large thermal mass (think those with thick solid stone walls) can benefit. Because they have a high thermal mass they will cool down relatively slowly and you can afford to be more conservative about how responsive you are to fluctuations in outside temperature, without risking sudden drops in the internal temperature. For example, these buildings may well manage to retain heat during a short cloudy or showery spell , compared to a lightweight timber-framed construction in which the temperature drop may be felt as unacceptable.

source: http://www.stiebel-eltron.co.uk/business-partners/news/technical-expert-blog/fine-tuning-heat-pumps/

[willybauss]

Hi tom,


thanks for the hint. I've been aware of this parameter and already thought about how to use it in a sensible way. I have to read the blog again to really understand how it could impact on my thoughts.

Willy

[immi]

Hi Tom
as far as I understand integralComponent should be a good friend of kelvin

v0106
changelog
-P30integralComponent added
-major change in parsing function. Parse (for the get function) is now more readable and customizable.

immi

[houseowner123]

You're awesome!

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