THZ / LWZ Tecalor Stiebel Eltron Heizung

[houseowner123]

Hi willi,

I might look into this. Sometimes I have smaller outages, not longer than 1 hour. Other than that the HMS100 TF are pretty reliable and I am thinking of getting 2 more, to record temp. on KG, EG, DG, and attic. Crazy, I know.
Anyway you were right, 20 kwh is my Endenergiebedarf; Primärenergiebedarf is 51 kWh mit 145 qm beheizte Fläche. I terms of overall energiebedarf our houses a pretty comparable. The 19 kWh are: 6.5 kWh heating; 7 kwh WW; and 2.2  kwh booster. My endenergiebedarf for 2014 is 13.7 kWh. I am not completely happy though. I lose a little pressure every year and need to refill the FBH with about 0.5-1 L every year. Next year I plan to install an additional FBH in the basement (30 qm) with a Selfio Kit and I will connect this to HC1. This take a lot of adjustments. Thanks for explaining the integral-Anteil. Happy New year to all of you!

[willybauss]

New year to all of you!

same from my side. I wish you all the best for next year.
Willy

[immi]

Hi tom
I read you have 1.8 bar and 4 floors (KG, EG, DG, and attic).
water 10 meter height -> 1 Bar
Atmosphere pressure --> 1 Bar
I would consider increasing to 2 Bars just to be sure. And I would check where the pressure loss is coming from.

Hi Willy
http://forum.fhem.de/index.php/topic,13132.msg234192.html#msg234192 is an interesting post.
I keep on reading that you are not a friend of room thermostates.
I do not understand the  physical nature of your empirical experience, which I trust, do not get me wrong.
Please assume the following oversimplified gedankenexperiment:
You have two identical houses just with two rooms.

• In both houses the flow temperature is the same. 
• In both houses room1 the flow is completely open: temperature of room1 is just a function of the flow temperature e.g. 22°C.
• In both houses room2 ha to be colder e.g. 21°C: In one house, room2 has a thermostat and in the other house, room2 has the flow restricted by a valve.
  

In one case, room2 has a pulse wide modulation and in the other, an amplitude modulation.
Why one should be more efficient than the other?
At the end, the efficiency is only improved by minimizing the flow temperature.

Here I am really off-topic, ops..
I wish everyone a wonderfull 2015
immi

[willybauss]

In both houses room1 the flow is completely open: temperature of room1 is just a function of the flow temperature e.g. 22°C.

In this (theoretical) case the benefit would be limited (but exist anyway), because this would represent an ideally adjusted heating curve. In room1 the thermostat would open the water flow by 100% of time, thus the thermostat1 could be skipped at all.

Advantage of thermostat in room2 is that you can easily adjust the target temperature to changing needs (as long as it is not higher than room1 temperature), what's not so easy without thermostats.

Drawback of regulating the temperature in room2 by thermostats would be, that the water flow (=> and temperature) in room1 would be impacted by switching the water flow in room2 on/off (because the HC pump will not follow the reduced flow value perfectly). In a real house it could happen that all thermostats in all rooms (or all rooms beside room1) are closed the same time, resulting in a high preasure failure 03. The flow value has to be at least 550 liters/h because otherwise the heat pump cannot deliver the produced heat to the house. These 550 l/h can't be realized by a flow through room1 only (in my case the whole house with all circles open has approx. 750 l/h). To avoid this situation there is normally a "Überströmventil" installed: in cases where too many thermostats are closed the same time the preasure increases above the adjusted limit in the Überströmventil, the Überströmventil opens and provides a short cut between flow and return pipe. This solution avoids the failure 03 of course, because it will immediately rise the return temperature, followed by switching off the heat generation. But a short cut between flow and return pipe definitely will prevent the generated heat from being used in your rooms => causing inefficiency. Without thermostats this situation can't happen,thus I decided to completely close the Überströmventil.

In practice it's usual to regulate the room temperature in ALL rooms by thermostats. That's what the heating mechanics can realize easily, fast and cheap - no time consuming investment on perfect hydraulic adjustment of water flow in all the rooms, no trouble with users wanting to adjust room temperatures easily by simply turning the wheel at the thermostat. So the solution for the mechanics is to adjust the heating curve higher than really needed, and limit the room temperatures by the thermostat settings in ALL rooms. So there is a difference between generated and really used flow temperature, which again causes inefficiency.

[willybauss]

Anyway you were right, 20 kwh is my Endenergiebedarf; Primärenergiebedarf is 51 kWh mit 145 qm beheizte Fläche. I terms of overall energiebedarf our houses a pretty comparable. The 19 kWh are: 6.5 kWh heating; 7 kwh WW; and 2.2  kwh booster. My endenergiebedarf for 2014 is 13.7 kWh. I am not completely happy though. I lose a little pressure every year and need to refill the FBH with about 0.5-1 L every year. Next year I plan to install an additional FBH in the basement (30 qm) with a Selfio Kit and I will connect this to HC1. This take a lot of adjustments. Thanks for explaining the integral-Anteil. Happy New year to all of you!

Please have in mind that the 51 kWh are per m². So your house has a calculated heat consumption of 51*145 = 7395 kWh/a. Mine is (mainly caused by being smaller) at 5664 kWh/a. When comparing our heat curves etc. you need to have in mind this difference of 30%. So your THZ works closer to it's limit than mine. In my house the booster usage was zero in last winter, yours was 2.2 kWh/m² => 319kWh in total.

You might be able to compensate that by your oven fire place, which I don't have. Do you have solar cells as well? I don't have them; I decided for PV cells on the whole south side of the roof.

Another interresting factor is the location. In my case the statistics says
- lowest average monthly temperature:  0.6°C
- average yearly temperature:  9.4°C
- highest average monthly temperature:  18.3°C

In your case (Berlin):
- lowest average monthly temperature:  1.1°C
- average yearly temperature:  8.8°C
- highest average monthly temperature:  17.2°C

So you might have an advantage in winter.

Meanwhile I have the 2014 values: 2184 kWh (electrical) in total => 18.2 kWh/m²
Compared to your 13,7 kWh/m² it looks like your oven (or solar cells?) help a lot.

[immi]

thanks willi; interesting point of view
immi

[immi]

uploaded v 0121, tomorrow or this evening, you can update
changelog:

• register interpretation from godmorgon implemented;
  http://forum.fhem.de/index.php/topic,13132.msg233992.html#msg233992
  for me it looks like "sFirmware-Id    Date: MAR 9 2011"
  if you know more about firmware-id or register FE, please share.
• register 17 for old firmwares implemented; only Peter is affected

@ Peter: you should try : get Mythz sPxxxx
please post the reply of the register; please try to interprete it accordingly
look at the interpretation here http://www.haustechnikdialog.de/Forum/t/85548/Software-zum-Auslesen-der-Tecalor-THZ-303-SOL-ueber-RS232-o-a-Schnittstelle?page=9
maybe it works for you

Hex________Dec________Wert________Parameter_______________________P
00D7_______215________21.5________Raumtemperatur Normalbetrieb_______P1
00DC_______220________22.0________Raumtemperatur Absenkbetrieb_______P2
0064_______100________10.0________Raumtemperatur Bereitschaft__________P3
01C2_______450________45.0________Brauchwassertemp. Normalbetrieb_____P4
01C2_______450________45.0________Brauchwassertemp. Absenkbetrieb_____P5
0064_______100________10.0________Brauchwassertemp. Bereitschaft_______P6
__02_________2_________2__________Lüfterstufe Normalbetrieb____________P7
__01_________1_________1__________Lüfterstufe Absenkbetrieb____________P8
__01_________1_________1__________Lüfterstufe Bereitschaft______________P9
015E_______350________35.0________Heizkreistemperatur Handbetrieb_______P10
01C2_______450________45.0________Brauchwassertemperatur Handbetrieb__P11
__02_________2_________2__________Lüfterstufe Handbetrieb_____________P12

[glücksgriff]

Hallo,

klasse sache mit dem Auslesen der LWZ/THZ. Bin die tage darauf gestossen und habs mit nem übrigen Raspberry nachgebastelt. Vorhandene Hardware LWZ404SOL(BJ 2012) Vers. 5.39 mit zusätzlichem Display(LWZ) in der Küche/Esszimmer. Raspberry mit Fhem und Anschluss über USB-Kabel und Zugriff über Wlanstick(zum test jetzt mal).

Das Auslesen und plotten der Daten klappt soweit ganz gut.

Probleme hab ich mit dem Auslesen der Innentemperatur siehe Ausgelesene Global:

outsideTemp: 2 flowTemp: 49.9 returnTemp: 46.1 hotGasTemp: 103.2 dhwTemp: 43.4 flowTempHC2: -60 evaporatorTemp: -8.9 condenserTemp: 46.5 mixerOpen: 0 mixerClosed: 0 heatPipeValve: 0 diverterValve: 0 dhwPump: 1 heatingCircuitPump: 0 solarPump: 0 compressor: 1 boosterStage3: 0 boosterStage2: 0 boosterStage1: 0 highPressureSensor: 0 lowPressureSensor: 1 evaporatorIceMonitor: 0 signalAnode: 0 rvuRelease: 1 ovenFireplace: 0 STB: 0 outputVentilatorPower: 20 inputVentilatorPower: 20 mainVentilatorPower: 70 outputVentilatorSpeed: 57 inputVentilatorSpeed: 38 mainVentilatorSpeed: 22 outside_tempFiltered: 1.9 relHumidity: 28.4 dewPoint: 0 P_Nd: 2.54 P_Hd: 20.27 actualPower_Qc: 10885 actualPower_Pel: 17302 collectorTemp: -60 insideTemp: -60

In der Mythz sehe ich die Version 0.110. Leider bin ich zu doof ein Update durchzuführen. 

[immi]

In der Mythz sehe ich die Version 0.110. Leider bin ich zu doof ein Update durchzuführen.

updating is easy; just type update in the command line field and wait 2 min and restart the Raspberry.
for the temperature issue tom and willy will help you; i do not have zusätzlichem Display installed

[glücksgriff]

Hi immi,

danke für die schnelle Antwort. Das mit Update habe ich auch schon getestet. Hab auch wie im Ebook beschrieben links Button für restart,update....... integriert.Restart und update-check funktioniert.

Bei update bekomme ich folgende Meldung:

[immi]

after update do not expect a feedback from fhem; it depends on too many things.
always refer to logfile

if you updated like I wrote, should be ok.
restart your raspi.
check which version of thz you have running

immi

p.s. I do not like the buttons for such important/critical things. I could click without wanting it.

[godmorgon]

Hi immi,

Two more questions:
- Do you actually have a numeric software ID (not the software version) shown in the display?
- The values of actualPower_Qc and actualPower_Pel do not make any sense. Do you know for sure that such values are provided?

I also think that the decoding of the relative humidity is not quite right. The value just posted by glücksgriff is absolutely identical to the one posted by willybauss in a different thread. In my case it is always set to 0.

Cheers,
godmorgon

[glücksgriff]

Hi,
hab meine himbeere 2 stunden in ruhe gelassen und vor einer stunde ein reset gemacht. Weder im eventmonitor noch im logfile stand was von dateiaktualisierungen. Lediglich die mythz daten wurden aktualisiert. Gibts eigentlich andere die auch probleme mit dem auslesen der innentemperatur haben.
2.display kann ich ja nicht falsch angeschlossen haben. Feuchtmessung ist ok und die raumtemp steht ja auch im display.
Was bedeutet "global only" als antwort für den befehl update.

[immi]

Hi godmorgon
>> Do you actually have a numeric software ID (not the software version) shown in the display?
I do not know; I am still on vacation for the next 2 weeks (I cannot check now). It is a topic in which I want to dig further.
Please keep on sharing all your information.
>> The values of actualPower_Qc and actualPower_Pel do not make any sense. Do you know for sure that such values are provided?
no: most of the names in register FB come from here 02.12.2013 06:44:26 http://www.haustechnikdialog.de/Forum/t/85548/Software-zum-Auslesen-der-Tecalor-THZ-303-SOL-ueber-RS232-o-a-Schnittstelle?page=13
Papillon got the names from the tecalor service software; I translated some of them using the same words in the engl. manual (google may help you).

My interpretation, which I never checked:
actualPower_Qc --> differential in time of Heat_Qc 
actualPower_pEl --> differential in time of ElectricalEnergy (electrical power from the plug)
If you make an avarage of their ratio over time (weighted mean over time), you should get the CoefficientOfPerformance.
Last year, I thought to check their ratio and write me an allert email, if it goes behond a threshold ... then I forgot to dig further.


>> relative humidity
I do not have a humidity sensor ;(
immi

[immi]

Hi,
hab meine himbeere 2 stunden in ruhe gelassen und vor einer stunde ein reset gemacht. Weder im eventmonitor noch im logfile stand was von dateiaktualisierungen. Lediglich die mythz daten wurden aktualisiert. Gibts eigentlich andere die auch probleme mit dem auslesen der innentemperatur haben.
2.display kann ich ja nicht falsch angeschlossen haben. Feuchtmessung ist ok und die raumtemp steht ja auch im display.
Was bedeutet "global only" als antwort für den befehl update.

if you used the update like I told you, you should get following result

Code Auswählen Erweitern


RMDIR: /opt/fhem/restoreDir/2014-12-25
UPD ./CHANGED
UPD FHEM/00_SONOS.pm
UPD FHEM/00_TCM.pm
UPD FHEM/10_CUL_HM.pm
UPD FHEM/10_EnOcean.pm
UPD FHEM/21_SONOSPLAYER.pm
UPD FHEM/23_LUXTRONIK2.pm
UPD FHEM/33_readingsGroup.pm
UPD FHEM/55_GDS.pm
UPD FHEM/59_PROPLANTA.pm
UPD FHEM/59_Twilight.pm
UPD FHEM/66_ECMD.pm
UPD FHEM/70_ENIGMA2.pm
UPD FHEM/70_JSONMETER.pm
UPD FHEM/70_PIONEERAVR.pm
UPD FHEM/72_FRITZBOX.pm
UPD FHEM/89_VCONTROL.pm
UPD FHEM/92_FileLog.pm
UPD FHEM/98_HMinfo.pm
UPD FHEM/98_RandomTimer.pm
UPD FHEM/98_SVG.pm
UPD FHEM/98_statistics.pm
UPD FHEM/Color.pm
UPD FHEM/HMConfig.pm
UPD FHEM/WMBus.pm
UPD FHEM/lib/UPnP/sonos_input_dock.jpg
UPD docs/commandref.html
UPD docs/commandref_DE.html
UPD www/jscolor/ct_background.svg
UPD www/jscolor/hue_background.svg

New entries in the CHANGED file:
  - fix: 66_ECMD: avoid reading from a closed connection in ECMD_READ
  - feature: 70_PIONEERAVR: readings for currentAlbum etc., more internals (network settings, moved some from readings to internals), new attributes volumeLimit & volumeLimitStraight

update finished, "shutdown restart" is needed to activate the changes.

in the log files, you find the same information
The answer to an update can also be "nothing to do... "
Do not make 2 update after another without rebooting

reset of the RASPI is bad; reboot is what you should do on a regular basis (weekly or dayly depending how stable is your system)

when you are more experienced (debugging yourself your problems), you can avoid rebooting and you can just resart fhem.

immi